At some point, most people encounter someone whose sense of style, fashion, or decor feels consistently off. At first, this is easy to dismiss as a matter of preference. Taste is subjective, we tell ourselves. But when poor taste recurs across different contexts, it raises a more unsettling question. What exactly is taste? How does good taste develop? Why do some people seem unable to acquire it? Good taste is often misunderstood as trend awareness or personal expression. In reality, it is something far more restrained and disciplined. Good taste is the ability to recognize proportion, coherence, and intention within a given context. It reflects an understanding of relationships between elements rather than attachment to any single element. People with good taste notice balance, scale, rhythm, and absence. They sense when something is excessive, distracts from its purpose, or draws attention to itself unnecessarily. Most importantly, they adapt their choices to context. What works in o...
1. Gentleness requires power. Gentleness without power is manipulation. The elephant must be gentle with the ant. Without conscious effort, the elephant will destroy the ant. The ant's gentleness to the elephant is an act, an attempt to convince the elephant of his great power. The elephant uncertain of the ant's potential may grow to fear the ant. Gentleness is merciful to our inferiors, manipulative to our superiors.
Torch: discounting the idea it could be a genuine expression affection here?
Jack Kelly: Affection and Gentleness are unrelated. Gentleness is the acknowledgment of & adjustment to someone's frailty. Affection is empathetic in nature attempting to suppress the universal loneliness plaguing humanity. It is expressed with both gentle & rough methods so cannot be synonymous to either. The elephant is more likely to feel the craziest hug the ant has to offer. It is unlikely the elephant could tell the difference between a gentle ant & a brutish ant. This all started when I was trying to figure out when gentleness was appropriate, because I was listening to a story of inappropriate use of it.
Torch: I don't really see gentleness as a caste system of power being relevant in all cases. If not affection, I think at least empathy would apply for a choice of gentle behavior rather than harshness. Not usually one to argue from the side of honest intent with human beings but sometimes things just are. Manipulation doesn't necessarily exist in a gentle act to someone with more power than one's self.
Jack Kelly: Caste implies position not power. If the strongest man in the world broke his legs, he would now be weak which may require our gentleness as we help him to the hospital. Due to weight, concern & caution is used to power him onto the stretcher not gentleness. Empathy is among equals understanding ones position or path. If an elderly lady needed help up a step through a door, gentleness would be used because one has the greater strength. Unless the door is weak, gentleness should not be used on the door. Awareness & experience guides us to use the appropriate amount of strength to open the door. If one chooses to be gentle on something that doesn't need it, it begs the question why? It can only be a dog & pony show for those watching or ignorance. Historically a gentleman had to be a man of means; a peasant acting like a gentleman would be said to putting on airs. A gentleman farmer owed his note not the bank.
Jack Kelly: Power isn't an overall average; a math teacher is typically the most powerful in math class. A home owner is powerful in his home. Power is a relative term and gentleness should be exercised when one finds oneself in a position of power, not inappropriately in a position of weakness.
Ned Brownlow: interesting. If a girlfriend gently rubs her boyfriend's back because she knows he likes it, is the act affectionate or manipulative? Or merciful? If affection can be expressed through gentle methods, how do you distinguish between empathetic acknowledgment and the power dynamic?
Jack Kelly: Gentle through poetic means has become a more elegant way to say soft with implied power. The pillow cannot be gentle because it cannot increase its power. The girlfriend has the power to hurt you but she chooses to apply only enough pressure for comfort. The stimulation from soft contact is a form of manipulation, suggestion, & foreplay. The illusion of controlling someone's power through request is a common desire both sexually & socially arousing due to its implied power. Mercy deals with justice which implies the person doesn't deserve gentleness. Which I don't believe can be dictated from an individual only from their position aka boss, government, etc. Gentleness is a necessary tool for proper social interaction & influence. The initial statement was an attempt to discover proper use.
Jack Kelly: Empathy can come from memory of a time of less power, doesn't imply current position. Power dynamic isn't personal but an attempt to determine how decisions are made. Someone may not have political power but they use personal power to change political decisions, aka indirect power.
Ned Brownlow: I think so. To qualify human nature in terms of international relations, it seems you're a neo-realist. Mutual benefits may be achieved through behavior, but every actor behaves rationally in their own self-interests, and will change their behavior if they perceive their own interests lie in behaving differently, regardless of the implications for others. Hence, gentleness is an exercise in soft power.
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2. Ones definition of God is a direct reflection of our character. If God seems angry & cruel, one is likely masking anger & cruelty by alluding to one who is more angry & cruel thus justifying oneself as the lesser of two evils. By knowing ourselves, we can know God. However our poor character distorts our vision of God. By actively improving ourselves & partnering with the world, we get a more accurate picture of God.
Donnie W: Curious by your statement "partnering with the world". Care to elaborate? I think you're talking about God revealing Himself in nature, would this be correct?
Jack Kelly: It’s a shorter way of saying work with God & his laws, don't work against God/world by trying to be the boss.
Torch: leaving me delirious and curious to your response to this philosophical question as you still use the God term as a seemingly personified entity.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" -Epicurus
Jack Kelly: I am not sure how I personified God, an example would be nice. Don't really like quotes because they never really fit. And I am answering an argument that has already been had, if I am going to beat a dead horse at least give me a new stick. You are assuming I believe in evil... I have previously argued that pain is a form of respect, the purpose is understanding. Evil is a derogatory term used against those we disagree with. Society's definition of evil has changed so frequently I believe it is a mute point.
Torch: I’m not arguing. Just curious about your interpretations of thing because it opens new perspectives for me that I haven't thought about. First example I can find. About the 4th entry down on the page. "Jack Kelly - It’s a shorter way of saying work with God & his laws, don't work against God/world by trying to be the boss.
Sunday at 8:01pm" nah, the quote over generalizes but the thread of the point is valid. We’ve covered that I don't believe in a supreme being as any anthropomorphic personification with an agenda for the universe outside scientific boundary.
Cultures make their god and edit him to suit their values and mores wrapped around an interpretation of the good and bad events of their existences. I’m not convinced people from 5 different cultures around the planet can describe and understand a cosmic event enough to coordinate a system of morals that bind other people to it and promote exclusivity of worship. I enjoy our discussions and don't participate as often as I’d like because they turn into full out dissertations which are hard to taper off in a facebook setting. I hope it's not perceived as arguing with you as I’m approaching it from an exploration angle.
Jack Kelly: No perception of an argument. The specific quote is an attack on pride. No one cannot contradict Science/God. One can only work within its/his laws to get what you want. I believe everyone believes in God. Most are resistant to others crazy definitions & explanations. If the term God is defined as the laws that govern the universe, nearly everyone believes the universe is governed which is why science is a subject in school. Modern science was birthed out of the search for God. Science to me is just another synonym for God. The scientific method & faith read like synonyms as well. Science became an enemy of religion & narrow mindedness, God just got blamed. So the 2 great lovers of God, science & religion, became jealous of one another. That have been at odds like the Arabs & the Jews ever since. Saying what one believes then adding 'God says' is a bit juvenile & arrogant. So I understand your objection, the idea that a human could understand how all the universe or God works is ridiculous. The billions of projections of ourselves we push onto God is interesting & fun, except that in our human arrogance some leave the intellectual discussion & turn it into a physical one.
Torch: too often on a large scale with the cost in human life. Much of our advances come from challenging the norm and evolving new understanding of the boundaries as we stretch them with new understanding. The current stem cell research fascinates me and makes me optimistic about breakthroughs to alleviate suffering by many. Heh my son came and sat beside me yesterday and said "I enjoy these little talks we have"
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3. The term 'coincidence' comes from our attempt to sort through the patterns of life. If something is a coincidence then the events are judged unrelated. Often as an attempt to disprove another's pattern recognition; the term is used to insult another's intelligence & conclusions. Pondered long enough a connection can be made between any two events. The error is in the explanation & misplaced emphasis.
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4. Comparative goals are when one's success is based on the success of another. The natural tendency is to wish ill will on your competitor, harming community & team work. Comparative goals can be achieved without effort due to the other party's misfortune or never achieved due to their great success. Personal goals concern self improvement. Improving oneself is measurable & obtainable, leading to encouragement.
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5. Peace: Starts by acknowledging that Nature is the authority. No one is a space island nor overrules its laws. Then believing Nature's plan is perfect & the best possible future. By submitting & honoring the authority one cannot overrule, one discovers the place & comfort of the role. Working with Nature as an ally is less work & assured success. So love the unlovable because they are exactly who they should be.
Lyn Walton: Huh? Don't get this... "Because they are exactly who they should be" We befriended an alcoholic today in the cold. We loved her and assured her of Jesus' love as we parted. She's falling short, and so am I.
Jack Kelly: My children are perfect. Does that mean they don't hurt themselves or never make bad choices? I protect them by controlling their environment & not showing them options that would be devastating. Guiding and correcting but I am never dissatisfied. I wouldn't change anything about them. If you believe God has greater love than any man, than you must also believe that everything is as it should be to have the most effective impact on our success. God mercifully lets us fail over & over so that we can understand. He thinks we are capable of greatness, so he is patient. He doesn't insult our intelligence nor belittle us. Everyone is under Gods control & everything 'wrong' with the world happens to allow us the opportunity to learn and develop the character for our success. Peace comes from the knowledge that God cannot fail. Under his control we have the best possible chance of success. What we see as failure is typically the attempt to understand the world out of context.
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6. Except in the case of tragedy, financial strain is caused by greed. Greed does not look at future profitability, wanting more from present availability. Often not considering the long term maintenance cost, each acquisition adds stress as greed raises the bottom line. Greed cannot maintain wealth. Financial life is a wave, unless one has the discipline to live at the bottom, the stress of failure is inevitable.
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7. Generosity without humility is not generosity. Giving without expecting is not the same as giving then rejecting. If a giver cannot receive then the giver is not giving. Gifts can be an attempt to enslave their receiver to gain status & control, sharing negates the power gain. Gifts can also be compensation for wrongs driven by guilt, avoiding actual healing through confession & accepting social consequences.
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8. When I have gotten road rage, normally it’s because I was surprised then scared felt threatened then angered. However as I have become a better defensive driver & plan to be early, I have less surprises ending the path to road rage. Since then, I have noticed cell phones in angered driver's birdie hands, or shaking fist from interstate drivers in the right hand lane blocking incoming traffic. Defensive = control.
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9. Dishonesty, a friendly word for lies, is usually motivated by something positive: to stop from hurting someone's feelings, protecting innocence, to right a wrong, to make someone feel better, to boost another's confidence, etc. Everyone's motives are justified by the greater good; ignoring a virtue for any reason injures & exhausts ourselves & often those around us. End the game, it’s too much work, & choose truth.
Minh Dang: Reminds me of this CS Lewis quote: "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive... those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
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10. Unwillingness to express what you want, opting to 'go with the flow', is an attempt to protect oneself. Hiding one's desires may protect one from rejection but also prevents the possibility of acceptance. If one has never felt accepted, often it is because few have had the opportunity to accept. Without sharing the weight of friendship the scales become over burdened, leaving one feeling ogresk & the other neglected.
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11. When someone says "I really do believe that," what I hear is "I really want to believe that." That statement seems to imply doubt. If one is rich, most don't talk about it. If one wants to appear rich, he tells of his wealth: "I am really rich." The statement showcases ones insecurity, hinting that the speaker often exaggerates. "Let your yes be yes & your no be no." (Matt 5:37) One's truth doesn't need a tag line.
Jack Kelly: Jesus was mean about it. He called it evil.
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12. It is better to live & die young than prolong a meaningless existence. Everyone is important blah blah blah. Humans put too much value on survival. History remembers your impact not your longevity.
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13. There are an infinite number of wrong answers and only a few right answers. When you point out the wrong answer, well you are likely to be right, but it seldom helps the rest of us. A true leader leads somewhere; the sideline criticizes and sits there. Wrong or right, any direction is better than no direction. Even the wrong direction is something learned
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14. Open mindedness is not the possibility that everybody else is wrong; that's pride. Nor is it collecting the votes of the ignorant to disprove professional opinions we dislike; that's bullying. It is the possibility of personal ignorance, knowing that we can't consider all options nor review all information. Open Mindedness takes lots of humility sprinkled with personal honesty.
Sarah Sloan: You write at like a Dr. Level of reading so it’s always takes me a minute to understand what you write. I’ll get it on Tuesday
Jack Kelly: I think I like the word "Awareness" in place of "honesty." It seems stronger. . . Maybe "Integrity" instead of the other two . . .
Jennifer Eitel: "awareness" is more succinct. "Integrity" might not be understood by everyone (not everyone knows what it means to have integrity)
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15. When you are good at something it is hard to be funny. People take you too seriously and everything I say starts to sound critical even though intended as a joke. I have found I enjoy sucking at things. Sometimes I forget I can be funny, & it feels good to make people laugh even when it’s at/with me.
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16. When Jesus wiped dung off his disciples’ feet, it was a power statement. His eagerness to do a demeaning job showed He understood all roles & none would be able to control him thru His pride nor ignorance. Unable to be manipulated, Jesus crippled other's attempts to control; forcing them into violence, the final act of social desperation. Attracting others, He put himself in the best possible position for influence.
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17. Originality is the fantasy of the idle & the product of hard work. Desperation for identity chooses less successful paths because of its solidarity. Although blindly following is often destructive. Avoiding the crowd is just as destructive. There is safety in numbers. Being right alone often begets social martyrdom. Being wrong alone generates little sympathy. Life is a team sport. Finding an acorn is not originality
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18. The error of man is not the evil act but the singular good motive that is raised to the level of God. Experience says everyone's motives are justified regardless of the act with love, loyalty, self-control, kindness, etc. Trying to argue they're lying, they're not. I discover they either have no value in the victim or dismiss other values. Ignoring part of the truth will have the same result as ignoring all of it.
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19. Definition: Verbal Abuse- Criticism without the opportunity for change.... I think that definition covers every time I have felt uncomfortable or upset at my or someone's statements. Disagreement is not abuse. I don't believe volume or choice of words is. Exaggeration doesn't allow for change because it didn't happen so it would be abuse.
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20. Pain is the natural response to death. Intentional pain is exchanged for things of greater value. Unexpected pain triggers an emotional response of fear, guilt, remorse, and/or anger; because part of us has died. Unexpected pain is the merciful sign that we are killing part of ourselves, not for condemnation but awareness. Many times indignation prevents one from seeing how pain stopped one's terrifying destination.
Andrew N Bullaro: And sometimes pain feels good. It's all subjective.
Jack Kelly: If one isn't a masochist, then pain feels good because of the gain; sore muscles after working out, exhaustion from a productive day, saying no to self-gifts to invest. Pain is the evidence of sacrifice which is perceived as assurance or result for success. Pain appears to be the currency of success. Unless one is a masochist, aka joy is from ones death; pain feels bad what it gains feels good: prestige, money, love, strength, intelligence, etc. If pain feels good, it isn't pain. If you like spouts, it isn't perceived as pain. If eating sprouts is painful, it is because of memories or something else because sprouts do not kill us. If you like poison, then your body is malfunctioning and you will die. Real pain is healthy. If it is not ignored, pain is one of the best signals to avoid disaster. Opinions are subjective, Science/Nature is not. Begging the question, is pain real?
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21. Trivializing someone's pain with blanket statements of "its going to be ok" or "trust God" is a criticism of their character, attempting to expose their lack of hope or belief. The pain comes from the fear; if they trusted God or the good in life then of course the pain wouldn't exist. Why assign blame, doubling the pain? If it’s going to be ok, make it ok and take care of their problem; or just listen.
Malia Drinkwitz: Most people do not know how to deal with someone else's pain. It makes them uncomfortable and awkward, so they say dumb things like, “Just trust God." Anyone who has ever really gone through anything, knows that just having someone look in your eyes and say," I am so sorry you are having to go through this" means way more than the trite sayings. The person who will hold your hand and simply cry with you, the person who will sit with you as you face the pain, just so you are not alone....that person is a rare jewel. There was only 1 disciple that stayed at the foot of the cross with Jesus. The rest ran... like so many...running from pain.
Carole Ann Johnson: I don't think it trivializes someone's pain or is dumb to remind them that God is always there for them... they just have to make the choice to turn to him. Do you really think that by saying "trust in God" that they are "blaming" you for ...allowing the pain to continue??? That's not the point. God is your Father trying to help you every day, no, every moment of your life. Sometimes we just aren't looking in the right places to be able to see that help. If you can focus on the blessings that God has given you instead of the pain, then life may just seem a little better & you'll be able to see that "everything will be OK."
Malia Drinkwitz: Carole ...no offense.... but you clearly r not understanding what he was trying to say....sure we need to trust God and focus on the blessings....but sometimes we don’t need someone to fix the situation or offer advice. Sometimes we just need understanding.... when your heart is truly in agony someone preaching at you does not help....someone crying with you or acknowledging how painful the situation does. I love the Lord and Trust Him with all of my heart, but have been there when people offer their advice or words of supposed encouragement and they lack compassion and empathy and therefore make me feel even more alone.
Carole Ann Johnson: Malia- no offense taken, and I hope that I don't offend you by saying I don't think you understand the nature of people that offer that type of "advice." Not everyone shows sympathy in the same way. Not everyone receives sympathy in the same way. Maybe for someone else hearing a friend let them know they believe in God & believe that everything will work out for the best in God's plan is exactly what they need to hear. Regardless, I'm sure ANYONE that offers sympathy of any type has their heart in the right place & isn't just running away from the situation. If they truly were turning their back on you they'd just say, "Sucks to be you."
Malia Drinkwitz: Having just gone through a truly agonizing situation, I can say for myself that the right thing said at the wrong time, is not the right thing. Rarely do people say things from a bad heart, they usually have good intentions and a good heart, but they can still cause pain with their statements none the less. True compassion and empathy is knowing what each particular person needs to help them find hope... simply making a blanket statement of what you know to be truth is not always true compassion... really only Jesus can have true compassion, but by stopping and really listening to a person's heart we can often give greater wisdom and hope...sometimes even in saying "that sucks for you." Sometimes I felt more supported and it meant more to hear my friend say... Wow this sucks, and then it did to hear the people who did not really know my situation, say "It will be ok. Just trust God"
Kathy Miller: Amen; but sometimes the best thing to do it just be there - sweep the floor, cook a meal.......cry with you, yes? The Body of Christ in human form is a comfort just helping "do the next thing
Carole Ann Johnson: I agree that the best thing to do is to be there for someone whether it's through actions, prayers, or kind words. The Body of Christ includes a mouth as well as ears & hands. I do not agree that as Michael-Paul put it, "Trivializing someone's pain with blanket statements of "its going to be ok" or "trust God" is a criticism of their character, attempting to expose their lack of hope or belief...”
Jack Kelly: I have enjoyed reading all your comments. I would like to put greater definition to the two statements. In order to say "it is going to be ok," you are assuming to know the future and are taking on the role of God. The statement may be intended to be encouraging but the core of the statement is driven by pride. "Trust God" is a command. In order to command someone you must have a place of authority over them. As a parent or pastor, the statement would be appropriate. If the speaker doesn't have literal authority over the listener, then the statement demeans the listener to a level below the speaker. The speaker is forcing their control on the listener, judging them as ignorant or weak.
Pain in life is complicated. Almost all pain is caused by an unexplained separation. The pain is caused because one doesn’t believe Life’s Overseer is looking out for one’s best interest. Answering pain by pointing out a lack of trust is much like saying to a little girl that just got grounded “So you miss your friends, that is because you don’t love your dad.” That may be right, but unless one has proper authority to make the statement then one is a cold hearted judge.
Kate Nash: think of Job. What he really needed was someone to just sit with him while he sorted it all out--a kind of active sympathy.
Sarah Bianca Rogers-Barker: what if you believe their pain is self inflicted and they are just in the habit of complaining or being in pain? Should you push your belief of that aside and try to be comforting even though you're frustrated with their lack of motivation ...to fully educate themselves on how to fix the problem? Or should you tell them that they should stop complaining and try harder (in a nice way)...put their energy toward helping themselves or asking for problem specific help/advice rather than sit around having a pity party. I know that not all problems have a solution, but what if they do? What if it seems like the person ALWAYS has a crisis?? You start to wonder, is this a coincidence or does this Person like being a victim? I find it hard not to offer blanket statements when I feel that the person is to blame for their own pain and suffering. Maybe it doesn't matter if it is their fault or not...it's still pain whether it's self inflicted or not.
Maybe I could say "I'm sorry you keep putting yourself through that!"LOL maybe if you did what you know is right and stopped trying to... find an easy way out you'd find it wasn't as bad as you thought it would be and it actually would have saved a heck of a lot of trouble. It’s hard to be understanding when you can't understand as hard as you try. Nobody is perfect obviously, I'm sure people have felt this way about me many times. So maybe sit back and let people grow and learn and bang their heads against the wall until they get it if that's what it takes. If you really love someone you shouldn't give up on them...my conclusion? Blanket statements ARE bad, try to be more personal. We should all be more aware of how we treat others.
Jack Kelly: You played both sides of the conversation . . . well presented. Now for my uber analysis. . . All pain is self inflicted. In our body, pain is protecting us from continuing behavior that will kill us. The more intense the pain the more our body ...is telling us to stop. So our unconscious is creating pain. If they are faking or exaggerating pain to get attention, then the problem is a truth issue and social manipulation. If it is real, then it is the sign that something is wrong. Pain really isn't real; it is how we protect ourselves. In a social context, if you don't want to do something just cry and others will stop trying to make you. We learn to fake our pain because of social conditioning. This is the appearance of pain as a social communication.
Real pain is caused by something wrong with us. Sometimes determining what is wrong is difficult, sometimes it is easy. For emotional pain, no one can know another's heart. If we judge each other, we are claiming to know what only God knows. If we are annoyed at another’s social cry of pain, blanket statements are usually stated in frustration either with the inability to help or to make them go away. If you cannot help, find someone who can. If you don't want to help, say no. It is not our responsibility to solve the world's problems that would be God's job. I would take one caring heart over a thousand "trust God" statements any day.
Sarah Bianca Rogers-Barker: I'm in total agreement with all of that and it brings me a lot of peace!
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22. Obviously when another's involved the idea of right and wrong are very important... But, are there wrong choices for ourselves? So I die a few years younger or make less money or maybe accidentally cut off my hand. The important thing is a decision was made and it was my decision. I can learn from a decision but there is nothing to learn if there is someone else to blame.
Friend: have you recently made some kind of decision?
Jack: It is more a statement of acceptance of others. I have been irritated with conversations where friends (or myself) are getting upset with friends about things like religion or vaccines or investing or whatever. Self affecting decisions shouldn't be judged by another. Lewis even argued that people aren't sent to hell, they choose it. If God lets us make our choices in peace- suffering our consequences without mockery, why wouldn't I allow others the same grace? The older I get the more I am thankful God is nothing like us. God knows I couldn't do it. Maybe a few hundred more millennium of character building exercises...
Friend: OK, I get it. But if someone I care about is willing to talk to me about a decision of importance, I would like to have the freedom to speak the truth (as I see it) in love, with grace. When I love someone even the decisions they make about their own lives touches my life. Could you imagine what you would do if one of your kids chose, in a few years, to live a life that was damaging to their health or future happiness? That is really hard.
Jack: Giving a requested opinion is gracious. An unrequested one is judgmental. I trust God with my children. Preventing them from building character, only shows a lack of trust and may prevent them from success. I am currently dealing with someone I believe is dangerous. Coming to terms with how much I trust God is being defined.
Friend: Wow, no kidding. You are right--an unasked-for opinion is pretty much just interfering criticism.
Jack: I didn't mean it like that. A public statement is an implied request for an opinion. If someone doesn't want opinions they must keep there's private. I enjoy your input.
Friend: Facebook is kind of crazy, the way we put stuff on our profiles and people's walls. For sure fb is one way of eliciting other people's thoughts. However, I do have a couple people who always have permission to tell me what they think anytime. My husband, and my best friend, Heather. The good thing is they are both really gracious people who I know want the best for me. Other people better be careful how they present their ideas, or keep quiet. Or be ready for my reaction.
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23. If I define God as the author of the laws that govern the universe, then he knows every answer. If I claim to believe that God cares for me, knows every possibility & is never surprised, then I cannot reasonably fear. If I believe that God screwed up & the universe is flawed, then I believe I have the ability to create something as complex as the universe & understand all its complexities... are you laughing yet?
Andrew N Bullaro or you could not believe in God and just accept the fact that shit happens. Just sayin'.
Jack Kelly That would imply that you believe the world is getting worse. Chaos cannot create growth, order creates understanding, understanding eliminates chaos. It seems the human race is progressing socially (just open a history book), intellectually (Flynn effect), and technologically (pretty obvious). If you don't believe in God then I would urge you to define God. I believe everyone believes in God just like they believe in gravity. Most that they say that they don't are simply saying that they disagree with the moronic God definitions prevalent in our society. If you want to talk this out, I will. Warning: I am pretty good at turning atheist to agnostics.
Andrew N Bullaro: Lol, ah, Jack, I miss talking to you- such an interesting fellow :) I am implying nothing other than it's easy to dismiss the whole concept of God. I don't need to define God because it's like defining the giant spaghetti monster- pointless... to define something that doesn't exist. Gravity does exist and can be proven empirically- bad analogy. Just because we don't have all the answers is no excuse to give up and attribute it all to a divine power. What if we're all wrong and there really is a giant spaghetti monster? Then what? Nothing- that's what. Just like nothing will happen to you for not believing in any of the 333 million Hindu Gods (real number).
Jack Kelly: If you define God as the personality of the universe then gravity is a part of the character of God. Modern science was nothing more than the quest for the monotheistic God. We thirst because our bodies need water. We hunger because our bodies need food. If we consume incorrectly we could die but that doesn't make the natural desire incorrect. It tells us something about who we are. Atheism is a new idea (approximately 450 years old). All ancient societies created a God not because of the great alien missionaries but because our brains demand it. Societies didn't come up with a giant spaghetti monster independently and seems to be more intended to mock the argument.
Jack Kelly: Independently everyone came up with the concept of God. Why? What makes the concept of God so important to the human condition? More importantly if we ignore our natural hungers what long term effects will it have on our lives? If you decide not to eat your body will die. I believe if you decide to ignore the God question your brain will die. Try this definition: God is the place holder for unanswered questions. Also try defining science this could also be your definition of God. Being knowledge is infinite we cannot eliminate the need for the place holder and cannot eliminate the need for God. Chaos is instinct alone. Polytheism led us to the idea of causes. Monotheism led us to the possibility of understanding aka answers. The defining difference between man and animal is our intellect. It is arguable that the way we think is motivated by the core belief in God which led us to reason. I believe that the belief in God is the genetic strand that defines our humanity.
Sarah Bianca Rogers-Barker: but do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to God and if so or not...why?
Jack Kelly: The short answer is yes. But I believe I can explain it in a secular way on why it is necessary to have a perfect sacrifice to progress. I use the historical influence of Christianity as evidence for the validity of the argument I haven't really made yet...
Andrew N Bullaro: You're wrong. I don't need God, or desire to feed that concept. The concept itself has been a crutch for humanity to help explain our origin and purpose. The reason there are so many religions and non-believers (which is a growing sect) is ...because of culture. If you were born in India, you very well may believe in a multiple Gods. You’re right in the respect that it has something to do with our brain activity. I believe the next step in evolution is the overcoming the "god center" in our brains and all live with rational thoughts. Unfortunately, I know this will never happen in my lifetime, or never. It may be the very demise of civilization. In my opinion it's delusional to believe in a God, but to give him a personality or, better yet, to think you know which God is "the only one" is absurd. I don't ignore the God questions, I've answered it. Please know I don't think it's a character flaw to believe, just a matter of philosophy.
Donnie W: Jack, I found this dialogue quite interesting, considering the conversations we've shared in the past. It's obvious you've been through quite a journey in your belief system. I'm also encouraged at your conclusions. I've often wondered how atheistic philosophy brings them to a place of peace considering that in order to have no belief in a creator means that ultimately, you have to believe, at the end of the day, that something is created by nothing. At least an agnostic believes that it's impossible to know, thus leaving a small opening for the possibility that there is a God. This belief, however, seems like a copout to me, of a group of people who want to live as they please and keep the idea of God on a leash.
Andrew N Bullaro: What exactly are you implying, Donnie? That because I'm an atheist that I am less moral or ethical than someone who believes in an imaginary being? That's an ignorant point. I'd put my integrity and morality against anyone. You wonder how I... find peace- well, it's simple; I find peace knowing I am a product of my surroundings, knowing that I am lucky enough to have been a product of a genetic success and I make the best of what I have. If it takes one to believe that they are "special" and have a "divine purpose" to have peace, than I feel sorry for
them. And BTW, if you believe in God, than you also believe something was created from nothing.
Jack Kelly: I will jump in when I have fully read everyone’s arguments. However, making personal attacks usually shows the weakness of the argument- attempting to bully your listener. Please attempt to argue about the point not the ignorance of the other person. By attacking them instead of the concept, you are acknowledging your own ignorance. With the infinite number of possibilities I don't believe honest agreement is possible. But by arguing the concept we all arrive at better answers.
Donnie W: Andrew, first let me apologize for my comment. It was not my intention to be offensive or to infer that atheists or agnostics have no moral compass. In fact, I have many friends who fall into both categories and we have many wonderful discussions, at which point of course, we agree to disagree. I will elaborate more when I am home. It's a pain to try to type on a phone with this type of conversation.
Jack Kelly: Don, if one has ever felt fear of anything other than God, then one is agnostic. It is impossible to fear anything other than God, if you believe God is real. Many of the great Christian leaders such as CS Lewis acknowledged their agnosticism. Was it a copout? First pretend this is an AA meeting, if you cannot acknowledge you are an alcoholic you will always be an alcoholic. Undiagnosed Agnosticism I believe is the cause of pride and ignorance that has injured the influence of the church in the modern world. Acknowledging our actual beliefs is the only way to truth. If you want to know the truth of the universe, you first have to understand the truth and doubt within yourself. I claim to be a pro Jesus agnostic, but I also believe I know God better than the majority of Christians I know. Some of my friends have accused me of being a backsliding backslider. I don't see any real evidence in many Christian’s actions to say they actually believe the crap coming out of their mouths. So they might as well be atheist . . . that was a pride statement I know.
Jack Kelly: Andy, when you start off an argument with "your wrong." You are attacking your listener not the argument. Your emotional response seems to reveal anger against those that claim to believe in God. Many have created a God in their own image to crush those they want to control. They are using God as a weapon. However, the crutch of God has lead to modern science and many of the social improvements of the modern world. Blackstone’s Commentaries and Wealth of Nations quoted the bible more than any other book and has shaped the political and economic structure of the world more than any other books. The philosophy goes like this. It seems you are more likely to except an empirical God than a personal God. I have argued in the past the God cannot be personal because if he is perfect than he will always give the perfect answer which means the response is not personal but perfect. The belief in God is the belief in an answer. That is why the belief in Monotheistic God led to science. If you don't believe in God, it opens the possibility that there is not an answer. I don't see any positive intellectual results from that believe. Is it wrong not to believe in God or to believe in God? I don't care. I just want to progress intellectually as fast as humanly possible. I do believe I would be mentally injuring my intellectual capabilities by ignoring the possibility.
Andrew N Bullaro: I was attacking your argument, not your person. I'm not sure where I misled you. As far as God being "the" answer, well, I consider it the ULTIMATE copout, because the burden of proof is gone. "God made everything and God always existed" is... as simple as it gets. I'm sorry if I cannot subscribe to that. There probably is an answer for everything, but do we REALLY need them? No. But making shit up shouldn't be the next best thing.
BTW, http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/03/100303-liberals-atheists-smarter-evolution-evolved/ Just Sayin' :)
Donnie W: Jack, You are right when you assert that many Christians don't acknowledge their own undiagnosed agnosticism. After working in the church for 14 years and watching the manmade traditions of men become albatrosses around the necks of genuine, broken people who weren't perfect according to the church, but hungry to know God despite their imperfections, I myself became jaded to the "life" in the Kingdom. Being outside of the constraints of the church for the past 4 years has been quite liberating, in the sense that I have been able to explore the doubts I had concerning my faith. While I believe that the intellectual pursuit of truth and understanding should be at the forefront of every believer, many just settle for believing what their told from the pulpit each week. Part of me longs for the days when I was able to just accept what those who were further along than me in faith taught me as simple truths to build your life upon. This simple "childlike" faith made things very simple and easy to build upon. However, those simple teachings simply could not withstand the never ending intellectual questions that arise from within the heart that ask not only what or how, but why? When one begins to ask the "why" question, things become complicated. However, no matter what manmade "truths" have been torn down in my belief system, one reality has always held constant; my own personal experience with the Spirit of God cannot be intellectually explained away. The conviction of the heart cannot be intellectually explained, no matter how much psychology tries to prove otherwise. At the end of the day, I believe in the truth that Jesus taught that no-one can come to the Him unless he is drawn by the Father and his heart has been opened to "see" the "truth". Even an intellectual pursuit must be accompanied by the eyes of the Spirit. As Paul stated, the gospel is pure madness to those who cannot see, and I seem a fool to those that do not believe. I see that every day in conversations just like these.
Jack Kelly: Interesting article but it refers to those that define themselves as very liberal or very conservative. The modern movement is towards the middle. I haven't met many people that refer to themselves in that way. I also don't necessary agree that the belief in God makes someone religious, nor does religion make you a believer in God.
Using the word "copout" is another personal attack. You are implying that I only believe what I believe because I am looking for the easy way out. You are implying that those that disagree with you are lazy. Both of our arguments have been battled by men much smarter than either of us very effectively. Name calling is never an effective form of communication nor argumentation.
So if I define God as the laws of the universe then I am making shit up? So if I use language to define an abstract that I cannot see such as love or respect then am I also making shit up? Is any word describing something we cannot see making shit up or an attempt to understand the way we think and a greater understanding of the human condition?
Acknowledging that every civilization needed the creation of the concept of God isn't making shit up.
I have not implied that God is a person like you and me. I am saying that God as a concept is necessary for our intellectual development. If you don't want to know the answers then it doesn't matter.
By the way, I am not concerned with the origin of man and my motivation for this argument has no basis on purpose but on progression.
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Jack Kelly: By the way I really appreciate your responses. Both of you have made some good arguments. I like the challenge of communication. Thank you for your input.
John Schroter: The core of this discussion seems to reveal the real pickle: our finite minds, trapped in time, cannot fully comprehend the eternal. We catch glimpses here and there, enough to know that there's more out there and that we can't escape it on our own terms. But it is impossible to fully understand something uncreated - something eternal, that was and is and is to come. Sure, we have mathematical equations, symbols and concepts, but there's an uncomfortable crossover when it is applied on a personal level. This universe had a beginning. It is an inescapable truth that at some point something came from nothing, but it is currently an inescapable truth that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. Something happened. Something big. The fact that something happened means that something uncreated - something outside the confines of space and time - did something. Something even more incredible than just bringing order to chaos.
No matter what we choose to believe, there is a measure of faith involved. And we can't be fooled into thinking we don't have to choose - that we can ignore the one un-ignorable question. For instance - I read this thread and chose to write this reply. If I didn't write anything, then I would have actively chosen not to write. Either way, once I read it I was presented with a choice. The same is true when one is presented with truth. We either accept it or reject it. There is no such thing as a non-response.
Jack Kelly: John, Great answer! I am going to have to read it again in the morning. Your answer is both elegant and simply stated. I love being a part of legendary discussions.
Donnie W: Andrew, again, I apologize if I came across as antagonistic towards your stated position as an atheist. I respect your choice to not believe. I would disagree that you have a moral compass outside of the influence of God, however. You stated that you are a product of your surroundings. If so, then you are a product of the moral compass that society has helped to develop within your belief system. As Jack has alluded, it is virtually impossible to live on Earth without being influenced by the teachings of right and wrong from some religion. If you are an American, then the likelihood of your moral compass being free of Christian influence is very slim. To suggest that your morality came from yourself is a failure to recognize that you are a product of the environment that you were raised in. As far as believing that something came from nothing, I see your point. However, as John stated, we all have "faith" in something. Either you have faith that the universe just happened by accident and man is a product of evolution, or you believe that God created the universe. You are right, Christians believe that God has always been and that nothing was before him, but don't assume that this belief is a blind intellectual oversight. I believe that this is the idea that Jack is referring to that Christians can also be agnostic, that is, in our finite minds, it is impossible to know, therefore, there is doubt that we must deal with. This is what I meant in my response to Jack that our knowledge and intimate experience of God is what gives substance to the intellectual pursuit of truths that we have no way of fully knowing or understanding. I "believe" because God has revealed Himself to me, whether that makes me look delusional (your words) to non-believers is irrelevant, at the end of the day, it is to Him that I must answer for how I lived my life.
Jack Kelly: Don, I like the sincerity and openness of your last statement. Though I believe even through my intellectualism I have unshakable childlike faith. Ignorance is not faith. Childlike faith has little to do with learning but protection. I have provided a safety net for my children so they are only capable of hurting themselves to a point. As they grow that safety net will loosen. I don't want my children to be crushed by the world but conquer it so I chose to teach. God has created that same safety net for us and I have faith that God has created the perfect plan for my development. Choosing to remain ignorant is also not biblical. In the past year I have gone through some seemingly tough situations. But my attitude is better, my beliefs stronger, and I feel stronger and more capable than I have ever felt. I am in honors class and busting out the A's. God isn't bored and playing games with us. He isn't some lonely weirdo. Everything 'spiritual' is explainable but may take awhile to understand. The natural world and the spiritual world are the same. The same rules apply to both. The same God rules them both, and he is not schizophrenic. If I want to know God, then I want to understand God. Otherwise I am just making up a god.
Donnie W: Jack, very well said. I believe that true intellectual thought will actually lead us to a greater childlike faith. One where all of the pretensions of manmade religion are stripped away and you are left with a genuine, raw, messy faith, t...hat is not afraid to cry out to God and not afraid to walk through the trials in front of us, knowing that we are in the shadow of his wing.. It's true, that the more we learn, the more we realize how much we don't know. In my opinion, that is what makes the intellectual pursuit so much fun. There is so much to discover and so much that God wants to reveal to us. Many miss out because they never move beyond the ignorance of just accepting what others are telling them. However, it must be said that having others around you to "stir the pot" actually help this process. For that, I am thankful of people like you, Kelli, Paul, Burns and a few others that I've had the opportunity to share these kinds of conversations with over the years. Isn't this fun?
Tania James Palmer: Would everybody stop growing old and sounding so mature! It is bad enough that I have to face my age in the mirror every morning. I do not need to be reminded by my baby brother and old younger friend to sound so intellectual. Yes, I'm kidding. Love both of you!
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24. Reliving the hard moments of the past continue to cause me pain. I pray for release. I know that I am the only one whole suffers from my unforgiveness. I know I still struggle with forgiveness because of the pain I feel. Once I let go, I know the pain will leave with my condemnation. It should be easy since I have been forgiven by one who has never done me any wrong.
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25. I am a little frustrated. When I take the time to listen to someone teach, I want to be challenged. I want to be asked a question I haven't considered or introduced to an idea that unsettles my mind. Give me a fresh perspective; or something I don't completely understand nor agree with. I want something to chew on. I wasn't blessed with this insatiable hunger for understanding if it wasn't meant to be filled.
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26. An interesting thought on fear: Fear has only two results- acknowledgement and control. The language of Fear is used to either get someone to acknowledge danger or to control someone's behavior by creating strategic fears . . . There is a fine line between good healthy acknowledgement for the unaware and playing God by manipulating another’s fears.
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27. I saw my reflection. Stunned, I could barely move. As if I was looking at myself for the first time, I finally understand Wilde. Now that I have left, I anxiously wait for the next moment. Is idolatry wrong if the love of oneself is reflected in another?
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28. The forgiven cannot help but to forgive. The unforgiven are incapable of forgiveness. Forgiveness is setting the prisoner free... then realizing the prisoner was you. When I feel like my hate is justified, I am reminded of the truth: "who has been forgiven little loves little." If I can't easily forgive then I don't believe I have ever needed forgiveness for something "that bad." My pride causes my heart to fail. I want the forgiveness readily given when I acknowledge what God has forgiven in me.
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29. I don't see the difference between sinning once and a thousand times. It seems numbers help us justify ourselves aka sleeping with 2 instead of 200. It takes the same mental process. The courageous just repeat it more. The cowards/manipulators hope to move so slow no one will notice. Drop the justification and grace could take its place.
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30. Fear isn't taken away. Faith is received. Fear can only exist in the absence of faith. Refusing to do what is right out of fear and not out of malice does not relieve us of responsibility. Great faith has no fear. Great fear has no faith.
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31. Everyone wants to be loved, admired, and respected. Assuming one cannot have it all, I think I would rather be respected because respect is acquired when one can clearly express a conflicting point of view. Although disagreement is inevitable, the respect is received because of clear communication. Admiration seems to inspire like minded people. Loved seems to unite people.
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32. Only through trials can we develop the character for greatness. I hope to acquire everything I have to gain in every opportunity. I am truly thankful for my situation, knowing greatness of character takes time and God put me on the fast track : )
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33. Shame and Guilt: What's the difference? I am thinking- guilt is private shame and shame is public guilt.
Kate Nash: Guilt is what I did was wrong. Shame is who I am is wrong.
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34. 'Love your neighbor as yourself'. Is it possible not to? Seems to be an awareness statement. Examples: forgiven much-love much: Unacknowledged accomplishments-critical of others: seems like we treat others exactly how we treat ourselves. . . or how we think that God treats us.
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35. Narcissism/pride: inaccurate favorable representation of yourself in the context of your role in society. What would be an inaccurate unfavorable representation? Is it possible? False humility implies faking your value. Unaccountability? So you don't have to be responsibility?
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36. Fruits of comparison can be insecurity and pride but don't forget revelation, understanding, and knowledge. I don't believe we can function without comparison.
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37. Idea: Fear is experienced while discovering w/o a trusted guide. Faith replaces fear through trust in your guide. Fear requires understanding. Faith suspends it.
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38. For something to be personal does it have to be "customized"? If the individual uses the perfect act or word, is it impersonal since no other options exist?
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39. Idea: Fear and hunger are the same. Hunger is the natural alarm that we need to get nourishment. Fear is the natural alarm that we need to get understanding. Ignoring either brings sickness and death.
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40. Idea: Fear is the emotional acknowledgment of the unknown. Faith is accepting another's description of the unknown usually following their advice. Understanding is the natural end of that fear or faith.
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41. My new theory is the greater the disappointments the greater the life lived (big risk: big possibilities).
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42. Verbal abuse is criticism without the opportunity for change. Abuse: you are failure- meaning you can only fail. Fair: you have failed to finish your task- meaning you will not fail the next time if you finish.
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43.One cannot help someone do something they don't want to do. Unwanted help is another way of defining criticism.
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44. The ends cannot justify the means. To believe that they do is to imply one possesses God-like understanding. . . I believe God said that was a bad idea in both OT & NT: exalting oneself and all. If we stop trying to do Gods job maybe we could do ours better.
Torch: so in the end after taking the duty of moving something forward by bad ends to good means then you'll have to be forgiven? Wasn’t that the crux of the crusades that people willingly chose to walk off the straight and narrow to achieve a greater good for mother church and Christendom?
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45. Belief-Faith turns our lines into curves both up and down beyond and below our ability.
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46. Romance is a visible expression much like a smile, a choice to experience alone then a second choice to share. My most romantic moments could not be understood by the one I love.
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47. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger or handicapped
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48. Quotes are a way of relieving ourselves of the responsibility of our words & an attempt to intimidate those who disagree. By putting thoughts into our own words, we sudden find ourselves accountable & truly considering the implications of our comments. Quoting famous & respected persons requires ones opponent to take on thoughts of those unavailable to respond ending the discussion unless implications are ignored.
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49. Out of love, one justifies the another's weakness. The arduous path to justification often blames others for their loved one's faults, increasing stress because of the added cost of damaged relationships. Bitterness grows from the escalating tension. One cannot change another, so let go. One can only sacrifice if their task is undesirable. If one focuses on their attraction, one can revel in one's decision to love.
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50.Similarities are not interesting. Differences are. Psychologically, beauty is based on symmetry & averages. So one is attracted to ones likeness but discusses ones differences. If one desires to belong (insecurity), another's observations seem critical & negative. If one desires individuality (confidence), the same comments seem enlightening & encouraging. Young love sees no differences. Time together discovers them.
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51. Grass is always greener. Churches talk about mafia being rich & missionaries poor. Club owners pinch pennies stating we are not a church. 'Everybody else is rich' seems to be the common mentality. Those without addictions will always have more money than those enslaved, piddling their money away. Outsiders to communities only see the wealthy furthering the illusion. The unsuccessful are only visible from the inside.
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52. Dislikes are social handicaps. The primary influence of our preferences is cultural. What one likes is seldom biological but sociological. One is more likely to like familiar experiences. Those with food intolerance often love what they can't eat. Thus one's preferences override one's health. Dislikes limit life's experiences & nothing more. They minimalize possibility & creativity. What advantage is a dislike?
Torch Scp: Seclusion from an environment that you know you don't enjoy. I dislike the association of close minded people in group settings and i exclude myself from them to prevent argument and unnecessary unpleasantness. I find it less of a social handicap to remove myself from positions of uncomfortable conflict and don't feel i'm missing anything.
Jack Kelly: Everyone is somewhat close minded. Dislikes are usually based on comparison. Thinking someone is more open minded is usually because we know someone more close minded. The problem with these dislikes is when actions are avoided, over time ...the reasoning disappears & the dislike remains without reason becoming permanently apart of personality. Likes promote action; dislikes promote inaction thus creating walls & imagined limits. Deciding to do what we want builds confidence & pleasure. Avoiding dislikes promotes isolation & pride. If one is always looking to do what they like, the path is much easier than eliminating everything one dislikes and picking the least undesirable action. Bad attitude, negative language, & exhausting avoidance are characteristic of dislike motivations. Doing things one likes means one is always were one wants to be. Our likes are freedom, our dislikes are prisons.
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53. Building false expectations forces imbalance in relationships. The friend must decide if to bail in frustration or raise the value of the relationship. In borderline relationships, the technique is frequently used by indecision to weed out possible relationships by continuously raising the cost till few remain. Commitment to a relationship is willingness to pay any cost asked by the other. Secret: everyone has a cap
Jennifer Eitel: so what differentiates "false expectations" from "any cost asked by the other"?
Jack Kelly: False expectation is when someone says they will do something but does not. 'Any cost' is the willingness to go into a relationship with an unknown value which could eventually cost too much with all investment lost. Unless one is Jesus, no one will pay 'any cost.' It is more of a romantic notion. I was attempting to point out the limitations of commitment & the game of expectations. The two phrases refer to opposite sides of the relationship.
Jennifer Eitel: i was trying to put it into context and see if it fits in my own life. but what are false expectations? when someone says they will do something, you expect them to, and they never come through? or are false expectations the things you THINK a person will do, but never does? in the first case the blame is on the other person, in the second case the blame is on you. Either way i agree the the false expectations do cause an imbalance ...in the relationship, especially if they are never voiced. one person wants more from that relationship than the other. the unvoiced expectations just build into a storm of bitterness and blame. what does it mean to "raise the cost" of the relationship?
Jack Kelly: My statement referred to voiced expectations like "Let's hang out on Sunday" then ignoring phone calls or repeatedly canceling. Unvoiced expectations are damaging to those with differing cultural backgrounds. Common practice to one group ma...y be foreign to another. One might have been eager to accommodate but didn't know how. Pride prevents vocalization, limiting relational opportunity to only those familiar with one’s customs. Unvoiced expectations are similar to being tested & given a blank piece of paper.
Most friendships are based on close proximity (coworkers, roomies, etc), incurring minimal effort. Proximity is the primary factor in most relationships & the hardest to overcome once lost. Planning is then necessary to further the relationship. Additional cost raises personal expectations. Both parties must make more effort since accidental & proximity causes are no longer available. If work to maintain the relationship exceeds the value, it will end until proximity is reinstated.
Tania James Palmer: I have been married almost 16 years and married my best friend. I wouldn't change it. Marriage is not like the movies, but it does not have to be hard either. I would rather spend time with my husband than anyone else. I know your situation is different, but there is hope for a good marriages. We are proof of that. Love you and pray that you will find the woman that will be a plus to you and your children. You deserve it and so does the kids!
Jack Kelly: I was intending to discuss romance solely the relationship between two people mainly friendship.
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54. Those ridden by guilt put the gun on the table, grossly overplaying fear. Misplaced anger for the personal cost of betraying loved ones seeks to find guilty parties to direct their pain, creating unnecessary tension unlikely to add safety & likely to be damaging. Advise those in danger & trust their decision. Attacking or imprisoning everyone around alienates the protector & increases attraction to the thing opposed.
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55. Today's Thoughts on Atheism: Gravity doesn't stop working. If it does science suggests that there must be a reason, thus leading to greater understanding. Atheism rejects the personification of the laws of nature suggesting that personification is given to emotion & inconsistency uncharacteristic of what we understand of our world. If one believes we are higher mammals subject to migratory habits & therefore predictable then humans are also consistent. Humans only seem emotional & unpredictable to peers & creatures of lesser intelligence. So the personification of God cannot be completely inaccurate. One can become frustrated by everyone's commitment to their terrible ideas of God, then rejecting everything out of that frustration. To reject God is to reject the possibility of understanding, stepping backwards in the intellectual development of our race by returning to a world of chaos. Modern Science birthed from the search for God. The concept of a monotheistic God suggests that there is only one answer to the question. Before monotheism, mankind believed the world was governed by completely random events, then gods fighting over us. Neither could lead us to Modern Science only observation. Renaming God “science” doesn't eliminate God. It just creates unnecessary tension between all His pursuers. The idea that someone can accurately define or even understand God is as silly as an ant building a space shuttle to the moon. Just because lunatics use the word God to avoid responsibility for their actions doesn't invalidate the concept. No more than when hateful people use the word love to manipulate does it invalidates the concept of love.
I believe the world is perfect. I have even spent significant time debating why some horrible historical moments had to happen in order for effective change and realignment of mankind. Once we understand, we no longer fear. To end fear we have to pursue understanding and we have to believe there is an answer. Many times what we think was horrible was merciful when compared to what it prevented.
I am still thinking this one through. I understand Agnosticism, but Atheism doesn't make since to me. It seems like more of a reactionary anti-religion much like Satanism. I am only comparing one element of Atheism to Satanism. I understand they are fundamentally different. If any Atheist missionaries want to try to convert me, I am open to whatever the truth may be.
Torch Scp: this is a compartmented problem because the cases are oversimplified. intelligent rational atheism as a rejection of other's definitions of religious storytelling or adding personality to scientific laws makes perfect sense to me. atheist... scientists have willfully admitted scientific principles of interconnected energies and molecular structure that at the core makes the building blocks for every bit of matter. they just don't believe it has a sentience on any level we understand. removing preconceived notions for definition frees up the process of study and exploration.
backlash atheists like rebelling teens that are just tired of people shoving religion down their throats makes sense to me too as i understand the sentiment but isn't very sustainable as any form of life model. you're talking about a fundamental difference in rejection of principle based on an intellectual level on one side and visceral defense mechanism on the other.
satanism. are we talking about movie satanism largely created and sustained by hollywood or the left handed path of self interest that teaches love and respect for your loved ones and conservation of energy by not extending love to your enemy. core precepts are that that man is an animal and will behave as such. he will protect his home and family and friends. he will seek physical pleasure and mental stimulation to please himself.this path doesn't believe in a mythological devil and doesn't practice sacrifice or other rituals viewed as useless hucksterism to scare the masses into church control. it's a misconception that satanism of this order is the antithesis of a religion because they don't believe in satan or god. a necessary distinction.
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56. Putting Jesus first bothers me. Jesus is listed as an equal just higher on the list. Putting Jesus in every point of the list makes more sense. If one checks Jesus off a list marked as completed moving on without reconsideration can one be a Christian? Jesus is a mind set or filter affecting everything not a task or goal. The relationship allegory seems to fail, Jesus is a way of thinking not just a friend we talk to
Jack Kelly: Now I am doubting myself. The idea of Jesus gives us the hope of knowing God. Maybe by personifying Jesus it makes him a listable item such as spending more time with my family. God would be 'the list' because he is the summation of all thi...ngs without him no list could exist. Maybe Jesus isn't intended to be the personification of a mindset but a guide to its discovery. Understanding the mind of God through the relationship of Jesus who extends a mercy clause common to friendship to the hard causality of God... Maybe I need to spend sometime defining the trinity.
Russ Hutto: I think even Jesus himself said something about putting him above everything else (father, mother, brothers, sisters, etc). Definitely something to ponder.
Torch Scp: if i believed that rumba the bullfrog led us from the dark and asked you to put him before your family, would you do it? if 300 million people believed in the same bullfrog because they had been taught since birth to believe in the frog wou...ld you do it because everyone else did? how about if i had an old book that had been re-edited so many times no one had any clue of it's original text on an approachable level anymore that extolled the miracles that the bullfrog and his bullfrog father had done to convince us all he was the chosen frog and we went around saying "it is written that rumba the bullfrog died for our sins"?
you have to believe that the culture you're raised in biblically makes some kind of sense to follow out this approach to the world.
i agree jesus is a way of thinking. a harmful one in my mind because it usually ends up that there is a divine answer or a historical messiah that has everything figured out and it all makes sense. why does it have to make sense? implying that the world has to make sense to us is vanity. it suggests that if we don't understand things then it's not worthwhile or we're not validated. the universe doesn't owe us an explanation or validation. some things just are. the human need to assign rationality to scientific law or boundary so that it makes sense to us leads to so much confusion when our definitions don't agree i wonder if a personified messiah hasn't just made things worse and the mindset is a large part of our problem understanding the divine.See More
Torch Scp: re-reading this i realize if you can't hear my tone it can come across as offensive. if it's taken in that way i apologize. i'm using a ridiculous exaggeration to point out what i perceive to be a fallacy in story telling culture. it can be applied to politics or social theory and is basically asking why do we believe other than we've been told to? if this process of belief was used for something else, would we still believe it and why?
Jack Kelly: No one was responding to my latest ideas so I thought I'd throw a Christian theory out. Since I don't use the word Jesus very often, I know it is like dropping the F bomb in a court room. I wasn't attempting to argue the validity of Christi...anity, only to understand Jesus within the context of Christianity. The strong emotional response is surprising, proving the power of Jesus name. Maybe you are reacting to past statements. Being I am missing context, I am guessing. Possible responses: Vanity is confidence out of balance. To believe one knows all the answers seems to be Vanity because one has to believe they are God. I don't see how believing there is an answer & searching for it is vanity. If there is no answer to our questions, then what is scientific discovery? Is everything we have discovered about our world hokum? For a funny side note: if words of Rumba the Bullfrog had a greater impact on the world than Jesus, I would probably be an agnostic lover of Rumba ; )
Torch Scp: the examination of the relationship of jesus seems almost to exclude further debate and tolerance sometimes. is it enough to believe that he existed and led or must he be the only pathway to salvation? it's a huge sticking point in a lot of... culture. many prophets of one god/many scientists searching for the boundaries of life and the universe. does the terminology matter, matter little or is it all that matters? does existence prevail over essence or are they equal?is it enough merely to be or should you value quality of existence? does my non belief in the mythology of religion based on story telling culture disvalue or enhance my studies of divinity in life as we know it today?
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57. Love life and live. there are no mistakes only opportunity for knowledge.
Torch Scp: as long as we avoid consecutive identical opportunities...
Jack Kelly: Repetition is the mother of all learning.
Torch Scp: true enough. those that don't learn are doomed to repeat the past.
heh, although the project failed i'm convinced the theory was sound...
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58. Finding ones place is not achieved by wandering. Success is often found through consistency. Wasting time wandering hinders our opportunity for practice & preparation. Weakening our usable skill set, when promotion looks for us one will not satisfy the threshold of education required. Reliability is the foundation for trust. Responsibility produces effective growth. Patience & practice reveal the shortest path.
Jennifer Eitel: i don't believe it's this way for everybody. sure, if you have a certain objective in mind and a certain place that, based on your own understanding of yourself and your goals, you want to be, of course you must work hard to get there. howe...ver, not all who wander are lost, and not all who are wasting time are legitimately wandering. wandering, when you don't know where your place is, and when you are committed to learning from everything you experience and knowing that it contributes to some grander vision you have for yourself, is how you begin to discover your place.
Jack Kelly: Wandering means moving without purpose. Traveling implies a destination. I am not referring to traveling but aimless wandering aka moving without purpose. Wanders learn much less from their experience than travelers and their lack of accoun...tability in decision making means they know even less about themselves. If your actions have no intention than little can be learned from the experience. Causality is lost if the cause or effect are unknown. Without longevity, the questions and answers are discovered without the opportunity to find the other. Many of professional wanderers in my experience have hundreds of answers and no questions or hundreds of questions and no answers. They fancy a knowledge of life without context masking their insatiable loneliness. Wandering is a great tool when brainstorming but not the most effective tool when looking for understanding or self awareness. I am not saying wandering is bad, just often misused as an escape.See More
Jennifer Eitel: what are professional wanderers?
Jack Kelly: Those who define themselves as wandering nomads. Their conversation is driven by stories of their travels. They frequently refer to friends one hasn't met & places one hasn't been. One cannot help to think that someone defined by their uniqueness likely cry themselves to sleep.
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59. Those with money seem to frequently discuss how not to spend money. Those without often discuss what they need. The rich spend to save. The poor save to spend. Hearing stories of multiple fortunes made & lost suggests wealth is a way of thinking not a monetary figure. Thinking about what you cannot afford leads to discontent, debt, & poverty. Learning to desire investment doesn't guarantee success but raises the odds
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60. Wabi Sabi fertilizes the authenticity of nature acknowledging nothing last, nothing is finished, nothing is perfect. I was reminded of the principle by a friends post. Such a childish playful word that captures the love of God & acceptance of others. Humbly attempting to embrace the reality of life, loving what is, not our idea of what it should be.
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61. Career & family are mutually exclusive. Some are lucky enough to have both for a time. Unlike hobbies & friendships long sabbaticals are not acceptable. Missed opportunities cannot be revisited. Both career & family can demand everything, when that happens one must be sacrificed. Making the decision long before it happens makes it easier, & lack of resolve often sacrifices both. Indecision is the worst decision.
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62: Without taboos, intelligence reigns: pushing the possibilities in a world of irrational restrictions, opportunity is given to those who sacrifice acceptance for opportunity. In a world of fear, success follows the brave. Without taboos, all possibilities remain in plain sight advantaging those who can recognize the solution fastest. In a world of accessible information, success then follows intelligence & diligence.
Jennifer Eitel: what do you mean by "taboos"? mental prejudices? biases?
Jack Kelly: Taboo: anything a social group states is off limits usually for religious seasons or suggestive acts. While considering unethical & immoral practices, more creative solutions surface. Rejecting an idea because it is wrong is narrow minded. ...Rejecting ideas because they are not beneficial & produce undesirable consequences is better. One must understand the reason the idea was called wrong to begin with. Continuing to reject ideas without understanding the reason usually creates misunderstanding leading to exclude a great idea because of its proximity.
I was looking through some bios on new musicians. Many modern musicians have fancy degrees & insane work ethics. I started thinking about wild lifestyles & idiotic interviews I have heard from 80s bands who pretty much tackled all American taboos. Without much to protest, modern innovators seem more intelligent than daring. It seems modern art requires a new skill set. Transcending the romantic ideal of rebels past, Geek is the new cool.
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63: Praising or criticizing the person often produces negative results. Too much praise diminishes confidence for fear of failure. Too much criticism produces recklessness, an attempt for validation. Praising or criticizing the word or act produces the desired result without side effects. Avoiding "You're smart/pretty/dumb" Using "Good job. Great outfit. To turn the TV on use the remote." The same applies to debate.
Torch Scp: we called it removing the person from the problem.
Jennifer Eitel: wow your so smart. too much praise lends itself to a general doubt in the praiser's sincerity. one begins to think they don't really mean what they say. tell me what is the desired result of praising or criticizing the word or act? what sid...e effects? in the case of the redundant praiser, one begins to think the desired result is not to make the praised person feel good, but to get that person to turn their attention to the praiser him/herself. unfortunately the desired result is not produced by this type of praise. rather the opposite ensues.
Jack Kelly: The goal of expressing a judgment is to encourage or discourage someone's actions/words. A common side effects is wounded pride resulting in personal rejection of the judges, rebellion, depression, suspicion, inaction, etc. If the creator i...s judged as his creation, then the creator must continue to make accepted works to feel accepted. If bad art is produced, than the creator is bad. If good art is produced, then he is good. The person should not be judged as his work but as the maker. Good job is a praise of effort. Bad job is a criticism of effort. Good boy is a praise of person. Bad boy is a criticism of person. So a persons acceptance is always uncertain if he is included in the judgment of his work. The judge is creating a performance based relationship. I was not attempting to discuss using P&C for manipulation. I am trying to discover the most effective use of Praise & Criticism. I believe it is wrong to tell your children how smart they are, instead praise their work.
Jennifer Eitel: i think you're onto something there, with the praise. it's better to praise their hard work than to constantly tell them they're smart or creative - that kind of praise leads them to avoid taking risks.
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64. Unless one is going pro, hobbies are intended for enjoyment. Hobbyist obtain a respectable skill level & knowledge base with a mild fascination & minimal time commitment. Achieving amateur level of a hobby opens relational opportunity thru common experience & language. Power of the amateur is the ability to gain advantage thru unrelated topics excluding competitors with unknown vocabulary & unfamiliar experiences.
Jack Kelly: I tried to put a positive spin but it required too many characters so I went with the negative. Unrelated topics help build multiple connections to another increasing trust & understanding. The more connections the greater the perceived value of the relationship.
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65. "This isn't for everybody" often means the statement is a lie intended to balance out another lie. The speaker is exaggerating & softening the statement for an emotional reaction intended to trigger a new way of thinking. Exaggerate the principle to pull to center & soften it to allow the person a means of escape without guilt. However, the truth applies to everybody, gravity shows no favorites nor allows exceptions.
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66. Truth doesn't need our lies. Many believe the ends justify the means. When building a path of lies to teach a truth, often the truth is abandoned as the rationale is proven false or the truth is used to validate the lies out of context. The hope that creating good character thru deceptive means often backfires with bitterness, rebellion, & distrust. There are no white lies, only those without obvious consequences.
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67. Time out should be a standard length without threats or restrictions on behavior. Letting a child work through their emotions is healthy. Giving no attention during time out, even for bad behavior, discourages attention seeking fits. They are already being punished what more can be done except escalate to harder punishments, which is a form of an adult fit. A child more likely imitates modeled not instructed behavior
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68. After time out: offer freedom if they stop crying or fussing for 10 seconds, have them tell why they had time out, ask for a smile, finally hugs & kisses. Continue to hold them until they want down, bad behavior is often a cry for affection. Rushing through post discipline or allowing exceptions confuses. Have time outs in grocery stores, friends homes, etc. If one is embarrassed, a child will exploit that weakness.
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69. Unwanted help often causes more work. Taking what is not given is often done in the name of help. Forcing help on others is driven by manipulation, pride, or guilt under the guise of kindness & mercy. To help another, one must ask. When offering help, do not assume. Taking while asking is a form of pressured consent, manipulating them into your debt. If one forces help, one is unconcerned with the need only the act.
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70. Maybe the supernatural is the realization that what one believes isn't true. The discovery that one can or one isn't gives us the power to break from who we think we are to become who we really are. Nearly every religion calls us children of god, suggesting great potential. Comparative to 'heroes', the supernatural power wasn't a new miracle but an old one that we discover, the miracle has already happened, take it.
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71. What many call evil is a lesser understanding of character. Both greater & lesser understandings always exist. To fancy a complete understanding of anything is based in ignorance of the history of human knowledge & self declaration of one's godhood. To obtain perfection in even a minor point is to proclaim the possibility of perfection in all things, exposing the lust for power. Condemning others, condemns oneself.
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72. If one loves practice, one will be great. Indifferent to social failure only personal, practice gives no grade nor score. Practice has no embarrassment nor external pressure. Working on fundamentals, one's abilities expand faster. Performance is simply stress management practice. Turn the world into your playground, let others keep score. To love practice is to love success. The race against oneself is always won.
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73. Thoughts on gas & environment: If you want to see money poured into alternative fuel & electric car development desire higher gas prices. Raising the cost on environmentally damaging products provides opportunity to alternative products previously too expensive to be competitive. Tax gas to $10 a gallon; That would put billions on the table, funding innovation; Watch every manufacture figure out the electric car now.
Tania James Palmer: Great ideal, but those cars are so little that I would never be able to take my family anywhere. Love you!
Jack Kelly: I am suggesting that the dramatic increase of revenue into the automotive industry would produce expediated results creating the oppotunity to purchase for more effecient vehicles, including mini vans and towing vehicles.
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74. One cannot teach kindness the motivation only show the action & observe common results. One can teach the act of kindness which is occasionally used to be unkind & manipulative. Math, structure, reason, & acts can be taught but heart conditions must be discovered. A great weapon for good & evil, kindness doesn't have to be sincere to be effective. However, it is most effective when both the act & motive unite.
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75. Hating the president is a child's temper tantrum. The American system for dealing with disagreement has been carefully crafted over 240 years. By disrespecting the president, one disrespect his brothers. Declaring intellectual superiority through verbal abuse & name calling is the desperation of a lonely child refusing to play with others. A team must work together to win, especially when we disagree.
Tania James Palmer: I would stand by any man that I felt loved this Country, but I don't believe this man does.
Bernie Stanley: I don't know anyone who hates him or anyone and almost all of my friends are conservatives. We just disagree with his approach, goals, world view, and values. He seems like a nice guy. Did you stand up for the office of the POTUS when G.W. Bush was hated by the left? I am guessing you will dodge that answer rather than recognize your inconsistency. Am I right?
Tania Responded to Bernie but erased her comments. Much of what she said can be derived from Bernie's responses.
Bernie Stanley: Clearly he is a big boy since you have to answer for him. I didn't disrespect him by asking a question. His respect is determined by the true answer. I think we both know what it is. Scratch my eyes out? What grade are you in?
Bernie Stanley: I just enjoy discussing politics and I assumed that he would enjoy the lively discussion.
Bernie Stanley: Tania, I am not an etymologist, but I think that expression is more white trash than Southern. I believe it is commonly heard in southside, Petersburg, and in Mechanicsville. Perhaps we should focus on the initial post and my initial respo...nse so that when he reads this, he knows that at least one of us intended to have a meaningful discussion. Was the assumption that he was inconsistent "going to the gutter" in your opinion? You mentioned freedom of speech as though I somehow trampled on it. If you think for a moment, freedom of speech is actually referring to government. I will be the first to apologize for assuming he was inconsistent (like 99% of all liberals) if he says that he did in fact argue to protect the office of the president when GW Bush was being called Hitler a movie was made about his assasination. He will get a special pat on the back for his consistency if he did in fact take great offense to the left's name calling and hate toward Bush. If not, I hate to say it, but I was right. What is the relevance of your family experience in war? Mine has plenty too, but it has nothing to do with the topic. I am sure your brother wins a lot of arguments with you. It isn't that hard. As the president of a renewable energy business, I can tell you that your brother is an idiot after reading his previous post about gas and the environment. Jack, sorry, but your thoughts should spend more time in your head.See More
Malia Drinkwitz: wow....you guys are not kidding. Makes me smile. Tannia I would defend my brothers too, although I will say that if there is one guy who can easily defend himself it is Jack. I think he is perhaps the most enjoyable person to debate, but I will warn you, it can be maddening...he rarely ever loses. :) Ps. Bernie...I am glad Jack does not keep his thoughts in his head, then we would not have interesting things to read like this! :) Yay for people with non generic thoughts!
Jack Kelly: It’s scary that a simple statement of tolerance invokes an immediate judgment of hypocrisy. I am assuming you are advocating against tolerance, I cannot tell. Instead of talking about the argument you immediately resorted to name calling. Y...ou implied I was a hypocrite. Then the “Big Boy” statement implies I am a child. Then you literally called me an “idiot.” You have chosen to use verbal abuse instead of argumentation. So your definition of “lively discussion” must imply violence. I am not saying don’t respond to my post but I would request that you refrain from attacking me personally. If your opponent isn’t as smart as you, it doesn’t make you right. Please stick to the topic & not the originator.
Your quick judgment showcases your defensiveness which is often a sign of guilt. Most of your statements were derogatory towards me personally, revealing your anger & frustration. Your response is a show case for the intolerance I am crying out against. My immediate response was intense emotion so I had to sit on it. I didn’t mean to hurt you. I am not saying you are dumb but calling me an idiot is not an argument but an error in reasoning. It is an attempt to win by hurting & insulting me.See More
I don’t agree with my sister’s response. However, you invoked an emotional response with your hypocrisy implication. Never bring a knife to a gun fight. By pulling out your gun, I am not sure if it would be fair to judge everyone else for ...pulling out theirs. My sister likes to pull out her guns ;)
Since this is now important to the argument. I adamantly defended Bush & I will defend whoever is elected into office. In a small way, I felt like I calmed much anger about Bush in my little circles. Running this country has to be the toughest job in the world & Americans like to blame the president for everything. This post was generated because on a 10 minute drive I saw a hateful bumper sticker towards Obama, another about Bush, and an old one about Clinton on the same trip.
As far as the gas argument, are you implying the cost of something doesn’t affect its use? An intense gas shortage would create great monetary reward for the winner of the alternative fuel race. The tragedy would pull the great minds of the world to our transportation crisis. Money [greed] is the great motivator. If everyone spent 600 to 800 a month on gas they would be willing to drop significantly more money on the purchase of a more efficient vehicle. A response to all the boycott cries online, I was attempting to offer another view on the rising prices & how it might be a good thing.
Do I need to pull out my resume for you to reconsider your stance on my ignorance?
Please don't take offense. I have seen your debates in the past. You are normally an intelligent debater.
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